A campaigning group, called ‘Get the L Out’, protesting harassment of young lesbians for same-sex attraction are being smeared in the media as marching against ‘against trans women’.
Reading the coverage of Pride today, you wouldn’t know that the defining moment in the history of the gay rights movement, which led to Pride being celebrated each June, was the Stonewall riots at the Stonewall Inn in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of Manhattan, New York City when patrons fought back against police discrimination–a fight, the apogee of which, it could be argued, was the arrest and scuffle of butch lesbian Storme with the police. Sadly, the celebration has become no more than corporate willy-waving–a chance for the big beasts of business to show how ‘woke’ they are with some rainbow-clad public relations. Those who exist in the shadow of the rainbow, are women like me–and we are angry and worried. In an effort to bring Pride back to its protest origins, this year a group called ‘Get the L Out’ took action at Pride London.
In an audacious move, lesbian feminist campaigners Get the L Out marched to the front of the Pride bearing banners with the words ‘Lesbian = Female Homosexual’ ‘Lesbian Not Queer’ and ‘Transactivism Erases Lesbians.’ Pride London organisers told them their banners were ‘offensive’ and bystanders harassed and swore at the women.
In defiance at being asked to leave, ‘Get the L Out’ lay down in the road, holding up the start of the parade. The image of lesbians lying in the road, seemingly daring those who have marginalised them to walk over them, was powerful.
Explaining why she took action, one of the campaigners explained:
“We protested the LGBT movement as a whole and Pride specifically because many lesbians feel erased and betrayed by a movement which claimed to represent us. The L in “LGBT” is meaningless when the LGBT organisations claim that a man can identify as ‘lesbian.’
“We either respect women’s sexual boundaries to refuse penises under whatever name or we don’t . And right now the LGBT organisations and Sadiq Khan naming lesbians “hateful” and “anti-trans” for daring to say “no” is disgraceful, misogynistic and anti-lesbian.”
As the LGBT movement has grown to encompass ever more niche identities, women who are exclusively attracted to women have been side-lined. Effectively, same-sex attraction has been redefined to mean same ‘gender’ attraction, in order not to exclude transwomen who identify as lesbian. There is now a hostile take-over of the lesbian community, waved on by well-funded organisations like Stonewall which were supposed to exist to advocate for lesbians.
The news that we are not one big happy LGBT glitter family has come as a shock to many of our well-meaning straight allies. ‘Get the L Out’ have had their inconvenient lesbianism ignored and the group have been lazily branded as ‘anti-trans’. There has been no attempt to understand who the group was at Pride London yesterday and why they protested.
Perhaps a good place to start thinking about why ‘Get the L Out’ have become necessary, after so much struggle to get lesbianism accepted and protected, is to have a look at the logic behind the slogans.
Lesbian = Female Homosexual
This surely is an uncontroversial statement, as it’s simply the dictionary definition of lesbian, right? Apparently not, because according to all of the mainstream LGBT organisations in the UK (and indeed the US), some lesbians have now have penises.
Over the past few years, the numbers of straight men transitioning to become transwomen have sky rocketed. This is generally cited as evidence of a freer society where people are able to be their ‘authentic selves’ with the help of surgery and synthetic hormones. It should be noted that even trans advocacy organisations like GIRES admit that around eighty percent of transwomen never have, or intend to have, surgery or to take hormones. As such, it is becoming difficult to differentiate between men who identify as cross-dressers and transwomen who are ‘lesbians with penises.’
This is having a catastrophic impact on the already marginalised lesbian community. Lesbian groups are unable to exclude transwomen for fear of being accused of transphobia. Understandably, for those who want to see themselves as female, joining a woman-only group, or entering a woman-only space, is touted as affirming their ‘womanly’ identity. The logical endpoint of the ‘transwomen are women’ mantra is that same sex attraction itself is transphobic; lesbians are now routinely told online that they are ‘vagina fetishists’ for excluding male bodied transwomen.
Outside of shouty, blue-fringed students, the idea that ‘some lesbians have penises’ is ridiculous. And yet, empowered by late-transitioning transwomen, the law is at risk of being changed to make questioning this statement a crime.
A Tumblr-inspired trend, it is tearing apart the youth lesbian community. Researchers estimate that 95 – 100 percent of the girls who identify as boys would otherwise grow up to be lesbian. This should, in itself be a cause for caution in relation to the spike in transgenderism among young people. Many are turning online to make sense of their feelings, and a dearth of information about female same-sex attraction is leading girls to conceptualise their discomfort in their growing bodies as evidence of being transgender.
There is a crisis facing young lesbians, and the so-called ‘LGBT’ community has abandoned them. ‘Get the L Out’ at Pride London yesterday are not ‘anti-trans campaigners’; they are lesbians fighting for their younger sisters to not be side-lined and ignored.
‘Get the L Out’ have been smeared as a ‘hate group’, ‘anti-trans’, and ‘transphobic’, when all that they asserted was the right to same-sex attraction and to not apologise for it. It says much more about the abuse of terms like ‘transphobic’ and ‘anti-trans’, rather than the group.
While Tesco and Barclays negotiate the size of their sponsorship of Pride London, women like me get on with life. We still look around before holding hands, we laugh to hide the anger when men make threatening and perverted comments, and we pretend to be ‘friends’ when we arrive somewhere new. I want life to be easier for the next generation of girls who come out, but when I look at what LGBT movement has become, I see a bloated celebration of men and money. What Get the L Out did yesterday at Pride London was not only brave, it was vital. I for one salute my brave lesbian sisters who put protest back at the heart of Pride.
Posted by Runaway
11 July, 2018 at 8:55 pm
I can’t believe this statement needs to be made for any adult with average functional cognitive capacity, but here it goes: not wanting to have sex with or date someone is not the same as hating that person or even that group of people, (particularly not when actual physical differences exist instead of superficial ones like race/ethnicity and disability). Women’s time, lesbian’s time, our energy, our love, and sex is ours to give as we please without intimidation, coercion, etc. Sadly even if as you try to argue it is a minority of trans women contributing to this... the effects have ripples. We have had 3 assaults on lesbians in the last month for disagreeing with gender politics, transactivism, and for speaking up for our right to say no. This is very feminism 101 that no one should disagree with. It is not evil to say, I am 100% same-sex attracted and proud. It is not evil to say I am a lesbian or I am a homosexual. Stop erasing lesbians, stop contributing to an environment perfect for conversion therapists to tell their poor patients “you just need to try it, maybe you will like it.” It is the same dog, new trick/wording, and it is not necessarily representitive of all trans people or what we feminists think trans people think: transactivism and trans people are not the same— one is is an ideology and activism group which completely hates homosexuality and wants to see being gay done away with to further its own agenda. And yes, ideologies are formed by people, however... The other is a minority group whom while we may not want to date or have sex with, we still respect as people. If you can’t see the difference, it’s time to sit down and do some more critical thinking about who benefits from the messages you are given and believe. Trust me, thinking isn’t a crime. TERF is by and far a term applied, in almost every use I have seen of the word, a tactic to silence lesbians or women standing up for lesbians. In addition the evidence for what counts as TERF ideology is weak since even the people who use this term can’t seem to decide what a TERF is beyond “disagreed with something I or my friend wrote.” I have seen lesbians who come online with a new blog and the only thing which comes close to sharing politics is they say “I am a lesbian” and they are branded a TERF. I have seen death threats, rape threats, incredibly graphically described violence, their jobs and children’s schools telephoned, requests that the person kill themselves, suicide bating (do x or I’ll kill myself), photos of peoples houses sent to them... because someone labelled them a TERF. Of all the people I have seen labelled TERFs in the last 5 years I can say in my experience I can count on one hand the amount of those people who ever said, even in jest “I wish trans people would die” and if they did it was usually after this bullying and intimidating smear campaign already started. It is completely cruel and par for the misogynist and homophobic course to tell lesbians that because we are exclusively same-sex attracted that we are any variety of negative terms. We have been told since the beginning of homophobia, by many groups in the world that we are broken, old fashioned, prudes, disgusting, wrong, fixable, uncool, devil worshipers, evil, cruel, man-hating, etc. and it is all vaguely or directly threatening, but clearly it also all Homophobia. Homophobia didn’t die and go away just because trans people exist, same-sex attraction doesn’t need to be burried just because trans people exist. You can respect both trans people and lesbians if you are neither or either, and if you are neither you can also choose to not participate in the mass-correction, erasure and thought policing of lesbians. You can choose not to send us death threats, not to tell us to learn to suck ****, and call out abuse when you see it— like when transwomen flood lesbian tags with pictures of their genitals in public forums. None of these things require you to hate anyone, but I am still sure someone will be maddened by this comment because in the messed up groupthink world of all queer politics- disagreeing with someone is akin to murder. Sending credible threats and actually assaulting people is to be celebrated. It doesn’t matter that lesbians are continuously the target of violence no matter who is doing the oppressing, because hey we are “ugly and unlikeable.” Most people labelled as TERFs would gladly tell you, we don’t want trans people regardlesss of how they look or how they were born to come to misfortune or to die, but it is not our responsibility to pay with our time to address this populations needs and pay with our bodies and souls. Quite the opposite, most of us want trans people to have all their rights like everyone else deserves and to dress and present how they want. I respect and value straight women, straight men, bisexuals, and trans people. But just because some of those groups want to date or have sex with lesbians does not mean I have to, want to, or suddenly hate them. Equating not being willing to shag someone with hating them is something men have been doing to guilt and manipulate women into relationships and push boundaries for years. I do not care who it comes from at this point, it is all wrong and unacceptable. In my humble opinion, is long past time actual, same-sex attracted lesbians free ourselves from the corporate & fashion of the GBTQ community and cut our losses so long as they refuse to respect us. I agree highly with “get the L out” on basic principal (but do not know enough of the group personally to know if I agree with them in full). However I for one am tired of seeing young lesbians bullied, pressured and shamed by a “community” that falsely claims it respects everyone. LGBTQ is not a safe place for lesbians: young old or in the middle. Equating being homosexual with being transphobic is homophobia. Straights, and allies may misguide themselves all they want into believing taking the side of committing acts of violence against lesbians: it’s not. Signed a young and disabled (same-sex attracted) lesbian who wants lesbians to be left the hell alone by people who seek to do us harm, and at this time that includes the “L”GBTQ
Excellent, those are brave women. I don't think an adult, intact Heterosexual men attracted to women, who have a sex arousal issue dressing in stereotypical trappings of femininity belongs in women-only spaces. We have always had cross-dressers, transvestites and drag queens. The transgender under the alphabet-goop pride banner are mostly late-transitioning men who identify as women. Let freedom ring, let all humans have dignity. Even the Pope couldn't force me to adopt his beliefs, neither can this new religion. Transing children is abuse. And, most likely gay and lesbian eugenics in actuality.
Thank you. You nailed it.
Posted by Neptuna
10 July, 2018 at 5:16 am
Those London lesbian protesters did a fabulous job of getting their message out, and what an important message it is! Lesbians for a long time now have been getting kicked to the curb underneath the so-called umbrella of LGBT. We all have to speak out loudly just like these radical women in London did. It's inspiring to see this statement they made! And thanks so much for your clear and intelligent article about this significant, paradigm-shifting protest at London Pride. It's time we heard from the L of LGBT.
Posted by Hogwash
9 July, 2018 at 10:49 pm
Some women have penises. And some women have brains. Keep trying.
Posted by s Jones
31 December, 2018 at 2:24 pm
All women have brains (whatever you mean by that!) No woman has a penis - one of the traits which defines a female or woman is the lack of a penis. You'd better get used to it.
Posted by Erzulie
9 July, 2018 at 3:26 pm
Phoenix Ashes why can you not also show the same support and pride in the lesbians who stood up for their rights and their community just as you stand up for Beth. This is the problem. It is constantly characterised as women against transwomen. Why can't we support both???? Can't we accept that there are several people who are trying to make their way in difficult social environments. Beth is of course to be supported in her efforts to find love and acceptance and a loving relationship. I also wish her well. I think we can all agree that Transwomen insisting that lesbians have to accept them as sexual partners is coercive and bullying. Any trans woman who does this is not to be supported. Just as I wouldn't support any one who insists on bullying or attacking transfolk.
Posted by Skeptical lesbian
9 July, 2018 at 1:07 pm
As a non-trans lesbian I find this to be a misrepresentation of the entry of trans women into lesbian/women's spaces. Non-trans lesbians are not being forced to have sex with trans women. I keep hearing anecdotes about trans women not taking no for an answer and they don't reflect my experience at all. I have been hit on a few times in recent years by trans women who responded very graciously when told that I wasn't interested. (The only person who ever responded angrily when I rejected her was a non-trans woman of size who called me fatphobic, and I certainly wouldn't judge all body-positive activists by her behavior.) This notion of evil trans women preying on lesbians is hyperbolic. It reminds me of the way that straight women have talked about *me* as predatory in the past. The 'trans women are coming for us' panic echoes the same tired myth about lesbians being a threat to women's changing rooms or Regina George's pool party. Some trans activists are obnoxious, yes, but so are many lesbian activists, such as these ones, especially in the age of social media. I would hate to be judged by this group's actions, so I don't think ALL trans activists ought to be judged for the actions of some annoying people on tumblr. The banners these women held speak for themselves. There is no way to describe 'trans activism erases lesbians' as anything other than hostile and deliberately seeking a fight with trans people. Are lesbians marginalized in Pride organizing? Absolutely, most often because we are not perceived as having the same amount of disposable income as gay men and these events are designed by and for people with money. Trans people don't rule Pride, wealthy gay men do. We are absolutely capable of coexisting with trans people without needing to make war with them. We have a lot of the same problems that they have (being seen as predatory, employment discrimination, lower incomes).
males cannot be lesbians what part of homosexuality don't you get. Lesbians are not social sex props for males who reject their bodies. Lesbians are not mental health support for males who are full of self pity. Get a Therapist and stop winging about entry into females private spaces.
Posted by QuietInSound
9 July, 2018 at 4:53 pm
There have been some Lesbians who have been harassed or attacked for saying no to Trans Women, Yet when they speak out about what happened they are harassed even more and called TERF or Nazi and threatened with violence. Where is the #METOO movement for them, why must women be believed for that but not if the harasser was Trans. It is a super tiny minority of Trans women who would do anything like that, yet it is the majority who silence the victims, who are fine with violence directed at the victim and who refuse to believe them, all because they dared to speak out against one of their own.
Posted by drummerprincess
13 July, 2018 at 3:46 am
Yes, well said.
Posted by Kim
9 July, 2018 at 4:58 pm
Well said, thank you.
Posted by QuietInSound
9 July, 2018 at 5:45 pm
There have been some Lesbians who claim they have been harassed or attacked for saying no to Trans Women, Yet when they speak out about what happened they are harassed even more and called TERF or Nazi and threatened with violence. Where is the #METOO movement for them, why must all women be believed for that but not if the harasser was Trans. It is a super tiny minority of Trans women who would do anything like that, yet it is the majority of Trans people who silence the victims, who are fine with violence directed at the victim and who refuse to believe them, all because they dared to speak out against one of their own.
Posted by Sarah
9 July, 2018 at 7:14 pm
Thank you skeptical lesbian! You so eloquently articulated the point I too felt!!!!!
Posted by Dina
10 July, 2018 at 6:18 pm
This is the first cogent response I’ve read in this thread, beside that of Beth’s. Wtf is going on? I’ve never seen such aggression coming from my lesbian sisters. This is misdirected frustration about capitalism and sexism in pride celebrations. TERF hatred is ugliness and must stop.
Posted by xxxxx
11 July, 2018 at 1:34 am
the 'assholes in any group' logic is a facile truth that functions to silence women. when someone lives as a man for 30+ years, then transitions, and that person harasses a woman... that is a male body and male privilege doing the harassment. Then getting away with it because the community says the perp is "really a woman" and the victim is "transphobic." How many of us need to tell our stories before you realize that your experience, being fortunate enough not to have been harassed this way, does not make the rest of us liars? my experience is that there are more caring, decent trans people than there are misogynist assholes. sadly, the misogynist assholes are dominating our communal spaces and publications and policies and even language. (front hole instead of vagina? seriously?!) And those of us who simply point it out are the ones being labeled haters.
Posted by Leni
11 July, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Beth admitted they DON'T SAY THEY'RE TRANS to potential partners. That's coercion, you can't lie about something so fundamental.
Posted by Justthefacts
9 August, 2018 at 11:49 am
Why do Transactivists (vast majority Transwomen) refuse to allow debate? Seek to stop women having their own spaces? Shout down ANY alternative voice? Deny scientific reality and insist feelings are more important? Insist on being allowed in to female spaces where women and girls are vulnerable? Why is it okay for Transwomen to call for and perpetrate violence against women? Why is 'misgendering' someone 'actual violence' but the slur TERF is okay? Why is the ridiculous term 'cis' used to describe women (and men), yet Transactivists refuse to stop using it even when the person they have used it to, specifically asks them not to? It is very telling that all debate is forbidden, this is a tactic of totalitarian governments, fanatical religions and cults and it is disappointing that the Liberal Media seems fine with this. The mantra 'Transwomen are Women' is screamed in to the faces of anyone (women) trying to have a reasonable debate. I have yet to see Transmen doing the same in Men's faces. And calling Lesbians who will not sleep with a Transwoman, Transphobic? Are we living in a parallel universe here? I am not a Lesbian, I am a supporter of my Lesbian sisters, who have every right to decide who they engage with ON ANY LEVEL. Lesbians don't want Penis and women, no matter how often you say they have, DO NOT HAVE A PENIS. I am proud of the protesters at pride, what I saw were women standing up(and lying down) for themselves. Anyone who thinks that what is going on with Transactivists is not an attack on Women, is I am afraid, deluded.
Posted by Bethany Birley
9 July, 2018 at 2:58 am
hello the name is Beth , am born in the wrong body and have been living as Beth since 2005. While I respect the fact that some lesbian women will not date trans, some trans find they want women because they can relate to them easier- these are trans like me. I don't ask for sex, relationships are far more important to me. I would rather my private bits kept out of it because I hate them so much. I could have them changed with surgery but due to serious medical complications I had to make a difficult choice, I chose to stay living as I am rather than risk death in surgery - there are too many people who care about me. We live in a world where we have to try and get along with each other, not stand against each other. Don't you think you can accept this? Beth
Well said, Beth. Your comment should remind anyone reading that every person deserves respect, full stop. My approach as a Mental Health Activist is to remind anyone I come into contact with that Human Rights are enshrined in the law & apply equally to everyone. Unfortunately, I have encountered prejudice, ignorance & basic lack of compassion at every stage of my mental health 'journey' (and, not that this is relevant, but I am a female who likes penises & therefore do not count myself part of any 'minority' group). I do, however, support & admire all individuals who stick their heads above the parapet to effect social change for the benefit of others. I admire you very much, Beth. Phoenix Ashes (@PhoenixAshes82)
Phoenix Ashes. You are naive. Men like "Beth" intrude on lesbian time and energy. All.The.Time. Why is he even here? Did you even think about that? Why is he in a discussion about lesbians? When he's a straight man? Because he's one of these autogynephilic pervs. Traipsing into LESBIAN space. LESBIAN discussion. Men with AGP hear "lesbian" like their personal dog whistle. Why isn't he going and talking to straight women, who are interested in men? Did you think about that? Why does he single out the 10% of women who are lesbian, instead of seeking relationships with the 90% of women who are straight? Lesbians aren't just sexually interested in women. While there are plenty of exceptions of lesbians with some male buddies, for the most part, lesbians want to hang with women. And I don't believe for one minute his bs about being fine being friends with women. He's like most straight men: weasling around for sex. He's an AGP who wants to validate his trans identity and fulfill his fantasy of doing it with a real, live, bona fide lesbian. This is a discussion about lesbians. Why are you opining here as some mental health expert who's straight, and has zero idea what lesbians have been dealing with forever? You clearly know squat about the lesbian community. You've zero idea how many meek sounding Beth's can ALWAYS be found lingering around lesbian events and spaces. They're intruders, who make lesbians uncomfortable and unable to just be ourselves in their presence. All it takes is one male to change the dynamics in the room, and for lesbians to start censoring themselves, especially on the topic of feminism. Please don't come into a discussion with lesbians and start thinking you are the omniscient Holy, Spiritual Peacemaker Between Lesbians and Trans/Men, who can teach the ignorant of us how to sing Kumbya. You in all your condescending het ignorance haven't got an effing clue.
Posted by Justthefacts
9 August, 2018 at 10:25 am
FMST - Well said.
Posted by s Jones
31 December, 2018 at 2:18 pm
But you cannot force others' to go along with a delusion
Posted by Jeanette Hartley
9 July, 2018 at 2:52 pm
I am sorry that you face these difficulties Beth, but any individual has the right to choose not to have a relationship with any one they don't want a relationahip with.
Posted by Claire
9 July, 2018 at 3:20 pm
Lesbians could ask you the same thing - to get along. Don't you think you can accept how they feel and acknowledge that just because they don't agree with you on trans issues, live and let live, and you can get on with your life and they can get on with theirs? Except every single time that comes up, it's transpeople that try to paint lesbians as the violent ones. How about you look up Dana Rivers and how she murdered a lesbian couple and their son, that's violence.
am sorry that this happened, I think neither group is violent but there are sometimes violent campaigners in each. I don't push any lesbian to want me and I don't know any trans who would force it. They may not speak up and say they are trans because they are embarrassed and ashamed of it. Why can't people be treated as they wish to identify? What is so hard about a trans insisting they are actually a female - because that is what they feel inside? Hate campaigns and smears from all sides need to be stopped.
Posted by s Jones
31 December, 2018 at 2:22 pm
There are countless examples on social media of trans activists threatening women. One did assault a woman and was convicted in court
Posted by Penny
12 January, 2019 at 5:48 pm
Being a woman isn't a feeling. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Posted by Ella Washington
9 July, 2018 at 3:32 pm
Bethany says "We live in a world where we have to try and get along with each other, not stand against each other. Don’t you think you can accept this?" The protesters here, and myself, are not protesting against you as an individual, but we are asking our trans brethren the exact question you pose - except in our case, we are trying to make transactivists and their supporters understand that their political actions ARE REMOVING THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND CAUSING OTHER PEOPLE HARM. So, we ask you the same: Why cannot transwomen accept that they must compete in sports against their biological sex, not their gender, because to do otherwise is harming women's rights to compete and earn scholarships (there are no transmen who are similarly removing men's access to compete). Why cannot transwomen accept that they are of a different class of person than women (woman is the class of adult human mammal who bears young), and they have different needs that should not be gained at the expense of women. Women should not have to hear that their society, their government, will not pay for their ordinary and reasonable healthcare, but their government and society will pay for a transwoman to become a medical simulation of a woman.
"Beth". You're a straight man. Stop pestering lesbians. Go bother straight women.
Posted by Martha
8 July, 2018 at 7:55 pm
Thank you for this! Wonderful article. Same sex attraction should not be controversial at a pride parade, but here we are.
And the L is the first letter in the LGBT, but here we are. The attempts to erase lesbians are centuries old. Disturbing stuff to be confronted with in this day and age in the West.
Posted by Laurie
8 July, 2018 at 6:46 pm
Women attracted to women are vagina fetishists?? Meanwhile, men who claim they are women are not autogynephilies. Funny, how patriarchy works huh. Men get to make all the rules and meanings of whatever they want. But if women take the lead in describing who they are it is wrong because men come along and say so. Men come along and make up a whole new vocabulary to give a normalizing acceptability to and a right to colonize fetishize the female body any way they choose. Men are normalizing their fetishes and society accepts it without question and then they cry they are the most oppressed of all. None of the science to back up their claims is valid, it is all sloppy research we've come to know as Junk Science. But whatever men say, whatever men want the world will bend over backwards to make sure they have it.
Posted by Defender
8 July, 2018 at 9:37 pm
I'm not sure if you know about this, but there are FtMs out there as well. Female-to-male. They did not 'fetishize' being inside a male body to 'oppress' men. These are men and women who want to feel right in their own body. Stop trying to make this into a 'men are oppressing women by taking their gender' thing. They are women just like you and me. Bigotry will get us no where.
Transmen cannot be autogynephilic, many transwomen are. Read on what autogynephilia is. Many transwomen we see today use lesbians to affirm their autogynephilic sexual fantasies to affirm their 'womanhood' and when lesbians tell them no, they go into a rage as it destroys their sexual fantasy. It is an actual condition in the DSM 5. This is what we see here and why they cannot handle being told lesbians are female homosexuals not interested in them as they're male. They fetishize lesbians. Supporting these males is deeply harmful to lesbians. It is disturbing and bewildering these males get all this support, at the severe expense of female homosexuals. You wont hear 'LGBT' about it b/c it is being led by the autogynephiles, with lots of money. Know what you support and don't cause damage to women and lesbians.
Posted by Chris
10 July, 2018 at 4:29 am
Surely Transmen can be erotically motivated by having a male body also, and the DSM 5 is a weird, barely-scientific thing. I genuinely believe that the few transpeople I have spoken to just feel they are born in the wrong body, but it is always a spectrum of experience. That said, I can see that this situation needs to be publicised and addressed by the wider community - no one should be criticised or attacked for rejecting someone’s advances. Also, no one should be coerced into a decision about their body before they have had time to discover who they are, if that is actually happening with young lesbian women.
There's evidence of autoandrophilia becoming a "thing" in young trans identified women who claim to be gay men.
Posted by s Jones
31 December, 2018 at 2:13 pm
Do cite you evidence
Posted by Selene
9 July, 2018 at 4:26 pm
Testosterone has other functions than claiming transgenderism ask the pharmacoporn industry
How on earth are they "women just like you and me"? I.don't have a penis. I don't have testicles. I don't produce sperm. I don't have the average size and strength of a man. I wasn't socialized into male privilege. I've faced all kinds of discrimination, harassment, and sexual abuse and threats of violence that are statistically more common for females. Not to mention being dismissed and not taken as seriously as men, which is also far more common for women. Please. Explain your ridiculous statement.
Posted by Whatevs
11 July, 2018 at 2:08 pm
@DEFENDER the article did mention transmen.
Posted by Margaret
12 July, 2018 at 6:45 am
I haven't heard of any ftm trans being named men of the year or speaking for mankind.
Posted by Margaret
12 July, 2018 at 7:03 am
There are a lot of male to female trans out there who, because of male privilege think that they can take over womanhood and subsume natal women at will. They claim to speak for us, have taken over our organisations and tell us who we can sleep with. They retain the male patterns of violence and women shaming. If you can't see that you're either one of them or someone who needs to be educated in the truth.
No, they're not women "just like you and me." They were not raised to be subordinate to men. They weren't taught how to interact with women, and interact with men, with the same rules that we have. An excellent argument can be made that they're NOT men (and the only ones I consider as "passing" are the really hostile misogynists who seem to be pleased to now have an excuse to harass women). They are transwomen (or trans women, depending which word they prefer) . Women, especially lesbians, have thousands of years of history as an oppressed group -- oppressed by the binary Other, which wasn't our idea. You can't erase history, you can only change it. But you don't change it by allowing a group of people from the oppressor class to continue all their oppressive behaviors but now claim that it's legitimate, because they're members of the oppressed class. It just makes no sense. The fact that they continue to assume that they're more entitled to speak than we are, and to silence us by threats of violence and claims of discrimination, should all by itself be a sign that the leaders have not moved sufficiently far from their origins to be called "women." There's a split within the numbers because lots of transsexuals do not consider themselves to be women "like us," though as far as I'm concerned they're a lot more like us than any trans-identified male saying the women with signs were committing "literal violence" against trans people. I'd call the transsexual feminists sister any time they wanted. But if you've ever had a man back you in a corner and say he'd "cure" you, or that you were an ugly bitch and that's why you were a lesbian, or say that all you need is a good fuck, I don't think you'd be so sympathetic of the new batch acting precisely as entitled.
Posted by Michal
10 July, 2018 at 7:50 pm
Men who believe they are women are just delusional men. But for saying it all regressive left and especially feminists would call me sexists, fascist, misogynist and list goes on. So patriarchy has nothing to do with it . These are women who created this peculiar situation that blokes are free to decide that they are what they are not.
Posted by s Jones
31 December, 2018 at 2:17 pm
Utter tosh! A laughably ill-informed comment - it is feminists who form the vanguard of opposition
Hera Thank you Laurie, you cite exactly how patriarchy works and of course it is the men tell us (women) how it is.The category transgender exists because of male power, it was created not just socially but politically. There are now men who have transgendered who are invited as keynote speakers to conferences on women's experience. Transgenderism on the part of men is an appropriation of women's experience and existence, all their demands and rights benefit men.Feminists have long fought to remove the definition of what a woman is from male institutions and develop their own understandings.Claims to the ' right ' to self define ' gender ' subject womanhood to men's power to define once again.
If so, would there still be an argument against straight people claiming exclusive spaces?
Straight people already have those.
Ace article. I'm in awe of those brave sisters.
Posted by joinvisalusuk
8 July, 2018 at 3:31 pm
Define 'woman' in a way that is neither circular nor reliant on feminine stereotypes.
OED "Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions. ‘adults of both sexes’"
How is this a serious question? Male and female biological sex. Homosexuality: attraction to people of our own natal sex only.